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D_FAST1
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1466 Posts
riddle me this ????
Posted 16-Nov-2002 10:51 PM

Ok ive been hard at work trying to get some kind of easy solution for our roundy walls so about an hours an half work I've came with this


NOW ALL WAS DONE USEING NOTHING BUT TEMPEST TOOLS.

Brush slice, and csg hallow, and box brushes. all are editable brushes, but when I compile there is all kinds of funkiness going on. LOL I wouldnt even know how to discribe it. If you which to take a look, here is the gmax file Funkiness
Sypher_5
Advanced Poster
270 Posts
riddle me this ????
Posted 16-Nov-2002 11:08 PM

At first it lookd like it had compiled with a leak, so I just threw a brush around the level and CSG hollowed it to "seal" it to see if it was a leak. Nope, and its not coming up with any errors when it compiles either. I then reloaded it and added brushes around the internal corner and opposite wall to see if it was a brush error. Nope, this one has got me puzzled aswell.
D_FAST1
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1466 Posts
riddle me this ????
Posted 16-Nov-2002 11:12 PM

yea i tried the same thing. but couldnt solve it maybe Browser[ICE] has an answer for us.
Sypher_5
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270 Posts
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Posted 16-Nov-2002 11:28 PM

I compiled it in Q3Radiant and it solves whatever the problem is. So its a Tempest compiling problem and not a mapping problem.
Sypher_5
Advanced Poster
270 Posts
riddle me this ????
Posted 16-Nov-2002 11:38 PM



What I did here was remove all the straight walls and left the corners there and built a room around them placing lights everywhere so I could see every face. As you can see this face doesnt appear in game. ( its the internal corner ) could that be your problem ? ( yeah I changed the shaders )
D_FAST1
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1466 Posts
riddle me this ????
Posted 16-Nov-2002 11:58 PM

hay never thought of checking it in qtk. yea i noticed that to, went in and tweak all the brushes a bit more with brush manipulate and actually got rid of the face all together, but tempest still compiled it all freaky. yea i guess that solves it/ build in tempest compile with QtkRadiant LOL. <!--TSHIDE<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />-->    <!--TSHIDE<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />-->
Sypher_5
Advanced Poster
270 Posts
riddle me this ????
Posted 17-Nov-2002 1:35 AM


Here we have a tapered brush sitting ontop of another brush, going to work as a base for a pillar, and look ! Oh no, the faces aren't showing up around the sides ! ( the top is ), I get frustrated, I go away and have a drink. I come back and spend about an hour trying to solve it. Now the thing that got me is that the brush thats there is the original that I cloned to make the one on the top. Now the top one looks fine and all faces are seen ( its the clone ). All I changed was I flipped it over so it it fitted in better.
From this way up to this.
code:
 _____         _______
/_____\ \_____/

Before I cloned it was fine and had all faces.

So after this post I go back and think, I wonder if those errors dissapear if I compile the BSP with Q3Radiant ?

Heres the result,


All faces there and accounted for.

There is something really screwy going on in Tempest.

| PS: is there a Screen shot button in Q3A ?, I'm just using printscreen and PS6 ( Adjust levels ) currently, and I'm loosing alot of detail doing it this way.
D_FAST1
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1466 Posts
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Posted 17-Nov-2002 8:22 AM

on mine screenshoot is f12 key. it should be listed in your setup.
Browser_ice
Moderator
4008 Posts
1 Product
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Posted 17-Nov-2002 8:58 AM

Have you tried it with my Tempest compiling fix ?
The difference between how GTK and Tempest for the compiling is the actualy missing compiling parms in Tempest.

This why I created the compiling fix.

For an explanation of this problem, in details, please check my Tempest Setup tutorial. It's stated in details about half way through the tutorial.

It may be a compiling problem or something I had seen in other map editors. Some map editors have problems compiling a map when a cut or slice has been done in such a way that very tiny gaps appears between the cut brush. The leaking process would see this even if you didn't. You had to zoom in at very close range to actualy see the gap. That's why I almost never use any cuting/slicing on brushes onless it was something very simple in form (a cube digging hole).
D_FAST1
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1466 Posts
riddle me this ????
Posted 17-Nov-2002 9:26 AM

Browser i indeed am using the fix. its alomost there but still some small kinks to work out. Now Ive been using brush slice quit abit and it seems to work fine I really never had any type of problem with it until this problem your looking at right here. What im going to do is to start all over and compile during each process to try to nail it down, and find the actuall cause. This may further help with your fix.
D_FAST1
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1466 Posts
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Posted 17-Nov-2002 9:30 AM

browser was wondering do you think tweaking the .INI or any other files such as tempest scripts to get it to piont to the newer q3map2 this may be why a qtkRadiant bsp fixes those freaky things that tempest just cant seem to coop with.
Browser_ice
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Posted 17-Nov-2002 11:56 AM

GTK doesn't use Q3MAP2. By default it uses the plain Q3MAP that comes with it.

If people are capable of using Q3MAP2 with GTK, it's because they have set it up to use it.

Try this :
-go into Quake-3
-go into the console
-load the map by using :
---> /developer 1
---> /sv_pure 0
---> /devmap your_map_name
---> /r_showtris 1

That last command will force the Quake-3 engine to display every polygons on the screen.
-If the missing faces are showing the polygons, it means it's in the game but not displayed. Maybe the normals got fliped somehow ?
-->> if the normals are ok, then it's a compiling problem (75% chances)
-->> if the normals are fliped, then it's a Tempest function problem (cloning fliping the normals).

-If the polygons aren't showing for those missing brushes, then Tempest didn't save them in the *.MAP file. So it's a Tempest problem.

To turnn off polygon showing :
/r_showtris 0

Also, take a look at this Help File (it may help) where it says :
quote:

...
An Explanation of T-Junction Cracks
"T-junction cracks" are a little more complicated than 'Z-fighting', and can be more difficult to track down and fix. They are caused when the vertices (control points) of a curve patch don't match up with surrounding world geometry. They can be caused when a patch extends into the world on one or more sides (see fig. X-3,) or when there is a split in the faces that make up one or more edges of a patch (fig. X-4.)

Avoiding T-Junction Cracks and Z-fighting
The best way to keep maps free of "T-junction cracks" and "Z-fighting" is to keep these problems in mind while adding patches and supporting geometry. There are a few simple methods for adding patches. Initially, they may seem like more work that they're worth, but they will save hours of hunting down and fixing problems that can arise through careless construction.

Avoid spanning more than one brush with one edge of a patch. For example, if an inverted bevel is 128 units tall, back it with 128 unit tall caulk brushes. Likewise, if the wall is made up of two vertically stacked brushes; use two vertically stacked patches of matching heights.

Avoid patches that extend into world brushes, unless all of the edges extend into world brushes. When adding patches, if one edge of the patch extends into the world, while the other edges line up with other brushes, there will most likely be cracking. Sometimes, particularly in the case of 'flesh' elements, it is necessary to extend parts of a patch into the world. In these cases, extend all edges into the world, or into surrounding patches.

Be Careful with vertices. Use Snap to Grid. Without it, your curves will create far more problems than they will otherwise might. Sometimes, especially after resizing patches, vertices can get "knocked off" the grid. Always make sure vertices are where they're supposed to be. If needed, patch vertices can always be snapped back to the grid using CTRL+ G. It's always a good idea to be completely aware of where things are in relation to the grid.
Caulk, caulk and more caulk. Get into the habit early of building the space behind curve patches with caulk brushes. You will eliminate Z-fighting, seal up the area behind the curves, and unless you are building a map in fashion doll pink, edges that aren't aligned with the curves have a better chance of showing up.
...
Rounded Wall Edges (endcapped)
This is a simple example of terminating a wall in a rounded edge. The most important thing to keep in mind here is where the vertices are placed. If the patch is extended into the ceiling or floor, there will almost certainly be cracks.
...
Finding and Fixing T-Junction Cracks and Z-Fighting
There will usually be cases where, despite careful building, cracks appear. When looking for cracks that may have been missed, there are three console commands that will be a great help:
\r_clear 1: This will clear the frame buffer on each frame, eliminating the Hall of Mirrors effect.

\r_fastsky 1: This will draw the sky as a single, solid color, making it easier to see the void behind curves. This makes cracks stand out. Be aware that fastsky also disables the function of portal screens and mirrors.

\r_showtris 1: This will draw white lines around all of the triangles in the world, showing exactly how the geometry in the map is affecting the patches.

NOTE: Another good way to use these commands is to set them to toggle on a key. The Debug Config below contains these commands as toggles.

Turn on r_clear, and r_fastsky, and run through the map, looking at the patches from all possible angles. If there is a crack, turn on r_showtris, and make sure that the patch does not extend into the world, unless it was intended to. Next, look at the surrounding brushes. Make sure that no splits meet the edge of the patch. If neither case is true (it happens these case? 'mystery cracks'), then try a different approach to building the area; perhaps splitting one patch into two, or rearranging the brushes surrounding the patch. When none of the above seems to work, experiment with as many different ways as possible. If something works, keep it in mind for the next time.
;;;

<small>[ November 17, 2002, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Browser [ICE] ]</small>

[ November 17, 2002, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Browser [ICE] ]
Sypher_5
Advanced Poster
270 Posts
riddle me this ????
Posted 17-Nov-2002 2:31 PM

Psst, Browser [ICE], you GMAX site page doesnt work. Why dont you just link to http://BrowserICE.gmaxsupport.com/Main.htm
I tried seeing what is surpose ot happen but, this doesnt exsist aparently, check spelling and caps, the server may be case sensitive.
http://BrowserICE.gmaxsupport.com/web/JavaScripts/Home.js
D_FAST1
Advanced Poster
1466 Posts
riddle me this ????
Posted 17-Nov-2002 2:45 PM

hay thanks for all those console commands and explainations. Printing them now

But patching my walls never. patches Im no slum lord LOL

I did how ever get it to come out right. The problem was in the way csghallow cut the brushes up into all those weird ones,here take a look



IT would seem that one shouldnt relay on csg hallow to make nice and neat clean cuts after slicing the corneres of your box round. As you said (Browser[ICE]) build with serveral little brushes. But you also say you wouldnt use brush slice. Well after working on this, I think it is probably one of the best tools in there, Heck you can slice slivers off your brushes with no probs.



Now all I need to do just a little house cleaning on 2 of the corners but all is turning out well, and all done in tempest ,even the compile.
Sypher_5
Advanced Poster
270 Posts
riddle me this ????
Posted 17-Nov-2002 2:55 PM

Sweet

You know the commands to remove the 2d and the gun from you view dont you ?

If you dont, they're
/cg_draw2d 0 & /cg_drawgun 0.

( crosshair ( which is 2d anyway ) can be removed in the same manner but when your putting it back the number represents the crosshair you want to use )
Browser_ice
Moderator
4008 Posts
1 Product
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Posted 17-Nov-2002 6:54 PM

Doh !

quote:
Originally posted by Sypher_5:
Psst, Browser [ICE], you GMAX site page doesnt work. Why dont you just link to http://BrowserICE.gmaxsupport.com/Main.htm
I tried seeing what is surpose ot happen but, this doesnt exsist aparently, check spelling and caps, the server may be case sensitive.
http://BrowserICE.gmaxsupport.com/web/JavaScripts/Home.js

My site had a bit of moving. I forgot to change the link in my own signature !!! Sorry about that folks.

As for me not using the slice tool. It's a habit coming from other editors. Maybe Tempest doesn't have the same gap generated problem after slicing that I have seen in other editors. I haven't realy used it in Tempest (too chicken I guess !).

[ November 17, 2002, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: Browser [ICE] ]
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